Tom Hughes | GembaDocs | The Power of G.R.E.A.T Processes
Tom Hughes is an entrepreneur and author with 30+ years’ experience of Lean and Senior Leadership. He‘s also the founder of GembaDocs: the best way in the world to document SOP’s.
In today's episode we talk about:
Why it took him 20-years to actually understand what lean is
(And how you can save yourself that long painful journey!)
What the heck a “Gemba” is
How documenting procedures can radically transform your business
And the power of SEEING how your customers actually use your product
Check it out!
Links:
Book a Lean Made Simple Tour: https://www.leanmadesimple.com/book-a-tour
Start a free trial of GembaDocs: https://gembadocs.com/
Check out Tom’s Books: https://improvementstartswithi.com/
Welcome to Lean Made Simple: a podcast for people who want to change their business and their lives one step at a time. I’m Ryan Tierney from Seating Matters, a manufacturing company from Limavady, Northern Ireland that employs 60+ people. Almost ten years ago, I came across this thing called “lean” and it transformed my life… now I want to share this message with as many people as possible.
This podcast unpacks our learnings, lessons and principles developed over the last decade in a fun, conversational way that will hopefully empower you on your own business journey — whether you’ve been doing lean for years or are just starting out!
Check it out on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any other podcast platform by searching “lean made simple.”
Thanks and all the best.
— Ryan Tierney
Tom Hughes Magic Moment 1: How Lean Can Work In ANY Organisation
Tom Hughes Magic Moment 2: Toyota’s Secret Research Strategy: Go To The Gemba!
Tom Hughes Magic Moment 3: The Best Kept Marketing Secret
Tom Hughes Magic Moment 4: Biggest Obstacle To Building Team Culture
Full Transcription of Episode
Tom Hughes (00:00):
For me, it's about a mindset. Are we going to accept the same BS every day or are we going to have a culture that says, "No, that's not acceptable. We're going to stop and fix it."
Ryan (00:10):
Welcome to Lean Made Simple, a podcast for anyone who wants to transform their business or their lives one step at a time. My name's Ryan Tierney from Seating Matters, a manufacturing company from Limavady, Northern Ireland. Eight years ago, I came across Lean that really transformed my way of thinking, my business, my life, and I'm really excited to share my journey with all of you.
Matt (00:32):
Unreal. I'm Matthew. I'm a podcast producer from Belfast. I met Ryan just a couple of months ago. I had him on the podcast and he introduced me to this thing called Lean. Had no idea what it was, has radically transformed my personal life and my professional life.
(00:46):
Since then, I've been up to Ryan's factory a couple of times to get a tour and see how he actions it in his own business. And it's been totally transforming our podcast business that's digital and there's no machines or jigs or things you can turn around. And we're really excited to get this message out there to as many people as possible that Lean is this amazing force, this amazing tool that can transform any business no matter what type of business it is.
(01:08):
And no better man to speak to than Tom Hughes today. He's a seasoned entrepreneur. He's an author. He is written about Lean, and he has a startup that actually solves a very common Lean problem called GembaDocs. It's the world's easiest and best way to create a standard operating procedure.
(01:23):
If that sounds like gibberish to you, don't worry. It sounds like gibberish to me. We're going to get into today and ask Tom all about what a Gemba is and what a process is and why that should be something that actually gets you really excited about your business. Tom, what on earth is Lean?
Tom Hughes (01:37):
Whoa. You start off with easy questions. You've got the academic one, which I can't abide. It's the elimination of ways through continuous improvement.
Matt (01:48):
Oh, no, no, we're not about academic on this show. We're leaning.
Tom Hughes (01:53):
And that's what really had thrown me off what Lean was really about for years was that kind of approach. For me, Lean is a leadership challenge. Lean spelled wrong if you ask me, you've left an R out in one spelling. It's learn. And the other big one would be the letter at the end's wrong, it's really about leadership. If Lean's done well, it's only done well when there's fantastic leadership.
Ryan (02:21):
How did you come across Lean, Tom? And what did your life look like before Lean?
Tom Hughes (02:26):
Well, I have two phases of my Lean life. Because I went to university in England after growing up here in Northern Ireland. And I was lucky enough to get into the automotive industry first job. And that's where most people would say Lean comes from, modern Lean at least. I was working first tier automotive and we were dealing with the Japanese, the Toyotas and the Nissans on a daily basis. I was practicing Lean before that term was actually commonly used in Europe with all the tools and techniques of Lean. And that's one version of Lean. And I carried that version of Lean for a good 20 years.
Matt (03:10):
Oh, wow. Come on.
Tom Hughes (03:11):
20, 25 years, that version of Lean, because that one was very much tools and techniques driven and very much about efficiency tools. Whereas the version that I now know and love, the second phase of Lean, my Lean epiphany, if you like, Ryan, you're a big part of that.
Matt (03:33):
Tell me what's a Lean epiphany?
Tom Hughes (03:35):
Lean epiphany. Well, it's my St. Paul's... Was it St. Paul's had his road to the Masters moment?
Matt (03:41):
That's right? Yeah.
Tom Hughes (03:45):
That's my Lean epiphany. What happened was I was doing a turnaround here in Northern Ireland or a transformation, whatever way you want to put it. And I was going into this company. My previous job title that I'd held in the recent past would've been commercial director. And I thought I was going to into this company to reposition them strategically, take them out of the market they were in that was declining and move them into new spaces with new customers that would use their existing technology. I thought it was more a sales and marketing type strategic role.
(04:15):
Day one at me desk and the two sisters who were the owners of the company, they come up to me and, "We want you to implement Lean." And seriously, I was not impressed. Not kidding, not impressed because the Lean that I knew up to that point, very much shop floor, manufacturing, production, on the ground. Used consultants. She did it with flip charts and workshops and it was all very dry.
Matt (04:48):
Boring as well. Yeah.
Tom Hughes (04:49):
Really honestly boring. And also, I would also say very much below my pay grade, that's not what I do. I'm miles away from that. That's like a down there thing. But anyway, I took the rather not very pleasant sandwich and ate it anyway. For a few weeks I was doing what I would call traditional Lean. I was training the guys on 5S, which is a workshop organization technique, which I would say is fundamental to any approach to Lean.
(05:26):
Doing that by myself and struggling the traditional way I would say. And I got Invest NI, the local organization here in Northern Ireland. I got them to come in because I thought I could get some money out of them so I could get a Lean person because then I could get rid of this Lean thing.
Matt (05:45):
Delegate that.
Tom Hughes (05:46):
Get rid of this Lean thing and get this Leaning facilitator. If I could get some funding for it, that would be me away. Bad news, that's not happening. There's no money. And I was like, "Oh my God." I was really going through the motions of this meeting. And honestly I was bored rigid.
(06:03):
And then there came a bit at the end, the meeting was wrapping up. And then they said, I actually put it in my book, the immortal words in Improvement starts with I. The words were, "There's this company in Lima Valley." I think whether you're from Northern Ireland or you're not from Northern Ireland, not much goes on in Lima Valley. Forgive me.
Ryan (06:24):
You're going to be in the middle of nowhere. Yeah.
Tom Hughes (06:30):
I guess the American equivalent would be like someone saying there's this company outside Biloxi. I visited Biloxi, no offense to Mississippians. But yeah, they're a bit like a cult. They're doing stretches every morning, but they're world-class at Lean. And they showed me this YouTube video on the spot of this American lunatic, Paul Akers, touring the Seating Matters facility. That's the company Seating Matters. And seriously, I was blown away first minute.
Ryan (07:04):
Wow.
Tom Hughes (07:05):
That was me gone.
Ryan (07:06):
I still remember the tour, so it is. Because we've had hundreds of people through the factory and tourism and your tour stands out because I just knew Tom totally gets this. Your mouth was hanging open, your eyes and "What am I even seeing?" You were really open to learning everything.
Tom Hughes (07:25):
Yeah, I could tell.
Ryan (07:26):
I still remember that day.
Tom Hughes (07:26):
Because even at the time I could... We had it off so well from the get-go because the Invest NI guys gave me Ryan's number. I WhatsApped him to and fro. Ryan told me I need to read 2 Second Lean and I need to talk to Paul Akers was the second thing.
(07:46):
I digested 2 Second Lean. It's about five hours long and I'd done it in two days on my commute. And I got it straight away. Straight away. I will give myself credit for that. It was like my previous version of Lean with facilitators and consultants and coaches and workshops and sporadic and everybody's going to do Lean. And I was, "Oh, wow, that's me. That's right up my street. That's a leadership challenge." And I love that. And I've done that before. I also wasn't scared of it because I'd done culture turnarounds quite a few times before.
(08:27):
Now that it wasn't just a dry set of tools and techniques, it was a culture turn around. I saw a vehicle that I could use much more structured than I'd done up before. Part of what Paul told me was, "You're so lucky to have these guys on your doorstep." I was able to cut out the first two years of rubbish listening to Ryan, not making the same mistakes you made frankly.
Ryan (08:56):
Yeah, for sure.
Matt (08:57):
That's how, Ryan and I know each other. And some guy said to me, "There's this guy up in Lima Valley." And then you go up there and you're in the car. And I'm so excited for the people that fly to Northern Ireland, [inaudible 00:09:11], because it's like a pilgrimage. Do you know what I mean?
Tom Hughes (09:11):
Oh, wow.
Matt (09:12):
It's like you're going up there and you get further up. And then the roads get a wee bit smaller and they get wee bit less proper.
Tom Hughes (09:20):
Very small.
Matt (09:20):
And then you're looking at Google Maps, "This is surely, it couldn't be in this place. There's no way." And then boom, you arrive and you're like, there is that moment where you're like, "This can't be real. Where is this?" And you go in and your life's changed.
Tom Hughes (09:31):
It's so funny. I think it was the second time I was going up to you guys, I was so excited. And my daughter said to me like, "Oh, what's all the fuss about? Why are you so excited?" And I came out with this, "It's like going to Disneyland for Lean people." Yeah, I was so energized to go there. And you were learning so much when you're open there. And I would say that it's so easy, I think. And again, I'll give myself credit. Is that a thing? Can I do that?
Matt (10:08):
You have permission.
Tom Hughes (10:08):
But I think a lot of people go to Ryan's place and see the physical. And they don't look for what goes underneath it. Honestly, I don't get that excited about the physical. Genuinely I don't. It's what drives the physical that excites me. And that's what I enjoy about interacting with Ryan and other Lean leaders and so on. That that's what gets me excited. And then that's what I consider myself, that's why people ask me to mentor them because those are the fundamental parts of getting it right.
Matt (10:42):
And so, to be more specific in that, you say it's not the physical. Are you talking about is it a cultural piece? Is it a leadership piece or are you talking about how to apply Lean to a business that's not specifically manufacturing? What are you saying there?
Tom Hughes (10:57):
I'm getting what it's not. It's not going home and buying a bunch of Kaizen foam.
Matt (11:01):
[inaudible 00:11:02] the tools. Yeah.
Tom Hughes (11:06):
Yeah. And organizing the tools. It's about... Last week there was a Ukraine company did an AME tour and I know them quite well. And this is just to illustrate... To answer the question that you asked. They're amazing. There's so many reasons you could choose why it's difficult to do Lean in Ukraine. I was interested to know what was your biggest barrier? What was the biggest obstacle you had to overcome to get a world-class Lean culture?
(11:38):
I was half expecting to say, "Ah, the materials not in English. The videos aren't in English. How do we train our people?" Blah blah blah blah, blah. Guess what the answer was? "Biggest barrier was me." That's what the guy said. And that's the bit that don't buy the Kaizen foam, look in the mirror.
Ryan (11:56):
Wow. Yeah.
Tom Hughes (11:56):
And that's the thing, because what I've learned myself, I was very fortunate. I had 20, 25 years of technical Lean under my belt before I decided to apply this form of Lean. Most people don't have that. Most people are... If you're going to try and teach and train your people how to do Lean, well, if you don't know yourself, how are you going to do it? Do you get me?
Matt (12:22):
Absolutely.
Tom Hughes (12:23):
You have to become a nerd student of Lean in order to be a Lean leader because you can't do it without that. And when I... Pavel, the Ukrainian guy who came back with that question said that that's what the journey he had to go through was to stop trying to push this onto his organization. Instead of that, Improvement Starts with I. Get into the, well, do I? What am I doing? How am I practicing? What's my knowledge level of all these tools and techniques and how to do Lean am I practicing? I would say that's a universal problem personally, which is why I called the book that.
Ryan (13:05):
Yeah, I think you're 100% right. It's one of the things Paul Akers talks about as well, that you can't delegate Lean. You have to take ownership of it yourself and the leader of the organization must be driving it. And that's exactly what you're referring to, Tom.
Tom Hughes (13:18):
There's a podcast that you and I were talking about that we saw recently, a Bob Proctor one. And the interviewer said, "Be, do, have." If you're going to do any behavior change, any shift in your life, you can't buy it. If you want to be physically fit, for example. You got to be it. You've got to be Lean, do Lean, then you'll have it. But most people want to skip the first two.
Ryan (13:47):
So good.
Tom Hughes (13:48):
Isn't that true?
Matt (13:50):
Absolutely.
Tom Hughes (13:50):
Everybody wants the outcome, but they don't want what drives the outcome. And there aren't shortcuts.
Matt (13:56):
In your new and improved Lean journey, for lack of a better phrase, the second half of the Lean journey, were there some early wins or early benefits that was a feedback for you, where like, "Oh baby, we are on track"?
Tom Hughes (14:14):
I would say they've come through getting over the challenges. The first big challenge in that company in Fermanagh, you got to picture the scene. I've spent all my life, two or three months persuading these people, "We're going to do this morning meeting thing. We're not going to work for an hour a day." We actually changed the pay structure before we started to do Lean, which was another huge change. All of that's done day one. Morning meeting, yay. It's my element. Yeah, time to go. Looking at the audience, two thirds of them can't speak English.
Matt (14:51):
Oh, interesting.
Tom Hughes (14:52):
How are we going to teach and train these people?
Matt (14:53):
Wow.
Ryan (14:54):
Wow.
Tom Hughes (14:55):
Right? Honestly, I was driving home that evening. I can picture it as I'm talking to you, what am I going to do? I'm such an idiot, but I burnt all my boats. I can't go back. I have to make this work. How am I going to make this work? Basically, I just boiled it down to as simplistic as we could possibly make it so that we could communicate everything in less than half a dozen words on a slide. And then translate them into. It ended up being seven languages in total to get over everybody.
Matt (15:29):
Carnage.
Tom Hughes (15:30):
But it was the best thing that ever happened. And the reason I say that, and I think again this is universal where language is an issue in companies, nobody had ever cared about those people, whether those people understood anything. And now, this mad idiot here was taking all the effort and time to reach out and make sure that nobody was going to get left behind. There weren't going to be any excuses.
(15:53):
And how quickly people bought into it I think was a function of that. And again, that's like I see Lean very spiritually. I really do. You get what you put into it. I put huge effort into those meetings, getting everything translated. I had a WhatsApp group that I'd post two pages of 2 Second Lean in all the different languages. I'd snipped them out, put them in there. If it wasn't in their language, I'd Google Translate it. I was taking two or three hours a day to prepare that meeting and we got great results. But again, you get what you put in.
Ryan (16:27):
How big of a deal do you think the morning meeting is for companies trying to...
Tom Hughes (16:31):
In the early days, there's just no way around that. I think as your Lean journey evolves, I know lots of companies, including my own, that don't have a morning meeting every day now, but that's when your culture's bedded in. There's no other way to start with. You have to do them.
(16:48):
Morning meetings really, I had a little mantra we did in the first one, build culture, grow people, raise... What was it? Build... At the beginning of the meeting, I didn't even know what I was doing. Why are we doing this? Build culture, grow people, raise defects, but it is really about building culture and culture is such a massive word. What does culture mean? You might build it. You got a great answer for that the last time.
Ryan (17:17):
We talked about on the first podcast, we done I think. Culture is basically group habit.
Tom Hughes (17:23):
I love that.
Ryan (17:23):
It can be simplified into group habit. That's how a certain group of people act and behave. That's the simplest way I can explain culture.
Matt (17:32):
You're interesting because you have a really nice cross section of, you come from the automobile industry, you're doing software now with GembaDocs. A question that I have, I'm just at the start of my Lean journey and I obviously have a digital business effectively. It's podcasts. And I'm like, can Lean be applied to non-manufacturing businesses and give me some of your secret sauce?
Tom Hughes (17:56):
Well, most of what we do at Lumen Electronics is non-manufacturing. Most of the value we add is at a computer. We make and assemble things, but the value is predominantly the process that gives the product at the end. It's really, again, Lean can be, you can get dogmatic about what that means. The tools you practice. The morning meeting even as to what vehicle are you using for your Lean journey if you like.
(18:30):
For me it's about a mindset. That's another aspect of Lean. Are we going to accept the same BS every day or are we going to have a culture that says, "No, that's not acceptable. We're going to fix it. Stop and fix it"? You could say that that's a version of Lean. What organization does that not work in?
Ryan (18:51):
Sure.
Tom Hughes (18:53):
Seriously. Within what we're doing at Lumen, Lumen Electronics, it's my core business interest. And that's our culture. And if something goes wrong, I'm the first one that could that have been avoided? What are we going to do to stop it happening again?
(19:15):
And it's like with a GembaDoc story. Last week we had a customer call in, "Oh, we forgot to order X, we need it super urgent. Can it be shipped?" The guy that normally deals with that's not in. Now, that has happened before and it's been chaos. How do we book the shipping company? How's the thing packed? How's this delivery note raised? How's the invoice done? We had that car crash six months ago of basically a day out of something that should have took 10 minutes.
(19:51):
But there's a GembaDoc for all that now. The guy, we have a WhatsApp group. He's, "Oh, don't worry, GembaDoc. Just it's this one." Smooth. No gripe. No hassle.
Ryan (20:04):
Can you maybe explain how you come up with the GembaDocs? And you've obviously seen a need for this. You're in loads of Lean gripes and you're a huge name in the Lean community. What did you see? You just seen a gap and seen that something was missing? Is that where the idea came from?
Tom Hughes (20:19):
It's really, really simple. It was my own problem. At Lumen, we were launching a new product. And my business partner, Patrick, says, "You know all about that work standard, standard work stuff. Will you do it?" And I was, "Oh, no way." Because it's like the traditional way of doing that, it's horrible. And oh, my whole career I've done it practically.
(20:43):
Tommy takes one for the team. I'm out there with me handwritten notes and me phone, taking photographs of the process. Back to my desk, doing it in Excel, emailing and Dropboxing. It was horrible. Whole day of that. And I'd documented about half the process of the assembly and test for this product. Brought it to Patty, expecting like, "Yay. Well done, Tom. That's great." And he was like, "Is that it? How long did it take you to do that?" And I was like, "Oh, I've been at it all day." And it's like, "Don't you have a software company?"
(21:19):
And it took him to do that. I put up with that pain at that first 2 Second Lean company, I did that for about four or five months every afternoon that nonsense, that it never occurred to me that I could fix it.
Ryan (21:31):
Wow.
Tom Hughes (21:33):
Off we went. Built the first one for ourselves. Wasn't a product. First one was 1,500 quid meant for us, only us. Didn't have a name. But as soon as I had it in my hand, mobile app, all my life, "They're all going to want this." Did one of our bathroom, put it on a few of the Lean groups and we raised enough money to build the commercial version of GembaDocs before we started.
Ryan (21:58):
Wow.
Tom Hughes (21:59):
It was but GembaDocs never been in the red. Built the commercial version.
Ryan (22:04):
How many countries is GembaDocs in now, do you think?
Tom Hughes (22:06):
Well, oh, I know exactly.
Ryan (22:07):
Know exactly.
Tom Hughes (22:08):
We have a counter on the website now. 27 countries.
Ryan (22:12):
27 countries.
Tom Hughes (22:13):
Close to 300 customers, seven languages and growing. But it's great. I was driving, coming up here to the podcast today and I was thinking, because I knew we would talk about GembaDocs. What's the point about GembaDocs? Well, here it is. It's not just about, oh, it's an easy way to document your process. That's what it was started as. But the big difference is anybody can use it.
(22:38):
If you go back even to that first use case, "Well, you're the only one that knows how to do it so you have to do it." And in most organizations that I've ever been part of, there's one or two people that do that and then they become a bottleneck. All the burden's on them. Nobody owns the standards except them. And that's a huge problem.
(22:59):
With GembaDocs, we solved that because as soon as that phone is in the guy who's doing the works hand and he documents the process, he owns it. Not me. And that's the biggest, best thing about GembaDocs. That's why we've got people switching from things that cost literally 20 and 30 times the price to GembaDocs because GembaDocs is better because of that simple aspect.
(23:26):
I got some company, they couldn't believe that. Some of the names that are signing up to it now, people, if you go to the petrol station, them. That's as much as I can say. Huge companies. And they're not getting the industry leaders. There are a few big players that have been around for years. They're not getting them because only a few people are ever going to use them. Whereas GembaDocs, everybody's going to use it. It's actually useful instead of just being wallpaper.
Matt (23:54):
Let me ask you a really fundamental question. I'm a Lean outsider. I'm a Lean noob. You said the word noob earlier. I love that. What's a Gemba?
Tom Hughes (24:05):
Gemba. Well, again, the standard definition workplace in Japanese, I prefer scene of the crime.
Ryan (24:13):
That's where the work happens, isn't it?
Tom Hughes (24:15):
Yeah. Yeah, that's the technical definition. But GembaDocs again, I was involved with four or five failed digital startups. That's why I know the place that we're sitting at. And it was so organic and pull-based. Pull-based as in there's a problem and it's pulling on us.
(24:32):
And whenever we decided to build the commercial one, it was like, "What are we going to call this?" I've spent five figures with agencies trying to work out what we're going to call it and what's the branding going to be, all that stuff. Literally was, "Well, you do it at the workplace, so we could call it Gemba something. And it's documents, GembaDocs. Is the.com available?" "Yes."
Ryan (24:57):
Classic.
Tom Hughes (24:58):
GembaDocs, that's what it is. We need a logo. Free logo generator app. Blue's kind of worky. Yeah, that'll do. There you go.
Matt (25:10):
Facebook is just blue. A lot of big companies use blue. We'll go with that.
Tom Hughes (25:12):
It literally was, like you talk about Lean. We've not spent a bean except on development. We haven't even spent money on marketing, just on development and getting... That was another Paul Akersism. Paul Akers mentors me a lot. He's who I would consider my main mentor. And his advice was, "Don't worry about marketing, just make it awesome."
Matt (25:35):
Nice.
Tom Hughes (25:37):
Just make it awesome and people will flock to it. And that's what's happened. I'm sure we could grow it faster, but so far, yeah, just make it awesome has been our marketing strategy.
Ryan (25:47):
I think the fact that the standard work has done at the Gemba by the people who are actually doing the work is so powerful. It's something that a lot of Lean companies would talk about is going to the Gemba or going to see where the work happens. And a famous quote, I think I shared this with you maybe a few months ago, is that the further away... Or it was Alex Ramirez I think came across it.
Tom Hughes (26:06):
It's from Chuck.
Ryan (26:07):
Chuck, Chuck from In the Ditch. He said, "The further from the Gemba the decisions are made, the worse the decision will be."
Matt (26:12):
Wow.
Ryan (26:14):
If we have a problem in the shop floor, we need to go to the shop floor, go to where the bolt is sticking in the hole. Don't make a decision from the office.
Matt (26:22):
Burning.
Ryan (26:23):
That's the power of GembaDocs is going to the Gemba and the information is captured where the work happens.
Tom Hughes (26:28):
I've been using that phrase in customer workshops recently. The further away from the Gemba the standards are made, the worst the standards will be. And the traditional way of doing it is back and forward to your desk. And that's the problem. If you just do it all there where the Gemba is, then it's just better on every level.
(26:46):
That's what I wrote another book, G.R.E.A.T. PROCESSES, the G.R.E.A.T. is an acronym. It means if you're going to have good processes, they need to be done on the Gemba. That's what the G stands for. R means they need to be recognized by the people doing the work. And you've preferably done the standards by or with the people doing the work. E is easy to follow, easy to use, the process. A is available at point of use. T available at point of use, another one. And any of you Lean guys out there, that's often not the case. They're in a folder somewhere miles away. Tested and trained is the final T.
Matt (27:23):
Wow.
Tom Hughes (27:24):
But that little acronym is there just, well, are you doing it to the great standard? Because if you are, you're going to be fine. That's what that was for.
Matt (27:31):
Amazing. Another very fundamental question. Okay. Because I'm mindful that not everyone knows what a Gemba is. Not everybody this, not everyone that. We've talked about processes and standard operating procedures and all this sort of stuff. Let's say I run a business, hypothetically speaking, that might not have any processes in place. I'm looking at producer Mark over here. That is maybe just at the start of this journey, AKA us. Why should we document our processes? What's the power of it or what's the benefit?
Tom Hughes (28:04):
All my life, there's so many levels. First of all, we've got a consistent way of doing things. Second, you two collaborate and decide, well, how do you make a post on social media? And you'll probably have a different way. And when you both talk about it, you'll collaborate and come up with the optimum way, at least with the pool of knowledge that you have. You make... It's such an engine for improvement, just the process of putting the standard in place. Do you understand where I'm coming from?
Matt (28:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Tom Hughes (28:35):
Because then if you've got half a dozen people who are all doing a task slightly differently, it'll be like you'll have a best of just by going through the process of doing your standard. Then you've got a base that you all own. Then if you get a problem in the future, well, did we follow the standard? Have we got a standard? Is the standard right? You've got a much better way to solve problems than, "Oh, how did that happen?" "I don't know."
(29:03):
Then as far as onboarding new staff, as far as covering when vacations happen, as for teaching training, that's just endless. But I want to come back to Gemba for a minute. Because you asked about Gemba and I don't think we did a great job of innovatively answering that question. Gemba can be anywhere along your value chain. It's not just the factory. It's not just your office. Gemba is customer.
(29:33):
What's happening at the customer? Do we really know what's happening at the customer or are we guessing? As normally people are guessing. Is Gemba at supplier? Definitely. What's happening at the supplier? That's Gemba. Have we got people out in the Gemba there? Because again, in my experience, most organizations don't put the resources necessary into understanding what's happening across the whole value chain. That also helps to hopefully bring this home for people that aren't just manufacturing.
Ryan (30:03):
Yeah.
Matt (30:04):
Can you give me an example of, and terminology might be wrong here, but bringing the Gemba to the customer or seeing what is happening with the customer?
Tom Hughes (30:13):
Well, this one, let me think. And a GembaDocs example. I'm the only person in the world that can see the standards that are created. I go in every day and I look and I can tell by the titles, is that an interesting one? Is that something that... I'm adding to my own knowledge base of how the product's being used. I can see all the different applications and some of them make me laugh. And my favorite one are the farming ones.
Matt (30:39):
Brilliant.
Tom Hughes (30:40):
How to dehorn a calf and stuff.
Matt (30:43):
Wow.
Tom Hughes (30:43):
It's just great. Because originally, that's my background. But when I'm doing that, I'm building up this knowledge pool of... And when a customer asks me about this, that or the other, I'm literally the best in the world. You could be asking because...
Matt (30:59):
You're understanding how the customer is using your product and that informs other things. Just that made it all click with me. Okay. I'm thinking you talk a lot about Stream Decks using a wee device called a Stream Deck to do automation's on your computer. Can you imagine if Elgato, the company that owns Stream Decks, were able to go out and see how podcast producers are using their Stream Deck, how farmers are using their stream decks?
Ryan (31:24):
Totally. Yeah.
Matt (31:24):
It would totally change the way they think about their business.
Tom Hughes (31:25):
It would. It would because the minute, I think it's just a streaming thing.
Matt (31:27):
Yeah. They've no idea that all these Lean people are using Stream Decks.
Tom Hughes (31:31):
Exactly. But that whole thing of Gemba and I think personally I guess is really useful for people that maybe don't think they're Lean people that are listening to this. That informs our whole development strategy. It informs our whole what are we doing with... Now we are, just in the last couple of months, starting to use some digital marketing, starting to put our strategy together. How do you do that if you don't know how your product's being used? Who's deriving the most value from using GembaDocs? How many non-manufacturing companies do we have on there? What different sectors are using it? And so on and so forth. I have to go and look or I wouldn't know.
Ryan (32:09):
Yeah. We done an exercise about three months ago at our morning meeting at Seating Matters, where every single person, all 60 people had to call out where their Gemba is. If someone in sales, where's your gemba? The sales person's Gemba is when they're in the client's home doing an assessment for the chair.
(32:26):
Kerry in accounts, Kerry's Gemba is actually when she's at the computer actively doing the accounts. The guy who assembles the frames, his Gemba is at this frame assembly table. The welder's Gemba is the welding bench. Everybody's Gemba is different.
Tom Hughes (32:40):
I love that.
Ryan (32:40):
It's where you're adding the value or where the work is actually happening. We'd done that project or that simulation or demonstration at the morning meeting. And as you say, people thought the Gemba was where the work happens. It's the shop floor.
Tom Hughes (32:57):
Where the screw is turned.
Ryan (32:58):
Yes. But the Gemba is wherever you're adding the value.
Matt (33:02):
Wow.
Ryan (33:03):
The salesperson's Gemba is with the customer.
Tom Hughes (33:05):
And if you have a job, you have a Gemba.
Ryan (33:07):
And it's funny because our design team actually thought the Gemba was where they create the designs and their Gemba is actually with the customer. Now our design team are starting to go out to the customer.
Tom Hughes (33:17):
Oh, totally. I love that.
Ryan (33:18):
To spend time with the customer.
Matt (33:19):
Wow.
Ryan (33:21):
To see how is the product being used. The Gemba isn't necessarily where you think it is. Yeah, it's interesting.
Tom Hughes (33:27):
And where the real innovation happens is when the designers who are typically in an office now go out. Wow. Same with sales supply chain people. I used to do it all the time in one of my previous organizations. I would make sure that the back office, traditionally they've been called, that term would've been used. Supply chain people went out and visited different companies of our own to see how they were doing things. And then they, "Oh, wow." And you bring back so much best practice. And they would learn so much more about the products they were using and so on and so forth. That cross-pollination is really, really powerful.
Ryan (34:03):
It's something Toyota are very good at. When they release a new model to the American market, somebody goes and bes that driver, drives around the roads through America, the highways. They redesigned the new models around being at the Gemba.
Matt (34:19):
Wow.
Ryan (34:19):
Bigger cup holders for American cars. They really redesigned the product because they go to the Gemba and see what actually needs done.
Matt (34:28):
Go to the Gemba. That's brilliant.
Tom Hughes (34:30):
And you could say again, when somebody goes, "Oh, it's Lean for me." Well, do you have a Gemba? Then it's for you then, isn't it?
Matt (34:40):
That's like, I was going to a barber, "Do you need a haircut?"
Tom Hughes (34:43):
But I do. I find that question fascinating personally, the non-manufacturing Lean. I just think that where you have a Gemba, where you have a process, where you have issues, continuous improvement's a thing. It's just how you apply it and how you put that mindset into your culture. It's literally universally applicable. The tools and techniques aren't but the concept itself is.
Matt (35:16):
See, just before we start wrapping up, would it be possible for you to give a few more examples from lots of different types of industries? Maybe unusual use cases off what we're talking about?
Tom Hughes (35:31):
Well, it's dead easy for the GembaDocs side. It's like I see everything, from the non-manufacturing, the more interesting ones. How do I mix the fuel for the chainsaw? There, GembaDoc. And when you workshop with the companies involved, it's like they're using a lot of seasonal labor. There's kids coming in the school holidays.
(35:56):
And the normal scenario is, "How do I do that?" And the guy has to go and stand with them and the senior chap and take 20 minutes of his life and they probably make a mistake. And I have to do that four or five times before the kid really, really can be trusted to know what to do. Now, ah, do the standard QR code on the chainsaw. Do that. Ask me a question if you need anything. There.
Ryan (36:22):
Brilliant.
Tom Hughes (36:22):
Different. From there all my life from how do you do someone super technical? We have stuff at Lumen where we're putting safety critical equipment on a half million pound pieces of kit. No room for error. And it's a light year away from casual. We have to develop a really specific standard that has to be followed to the letter. And well, how do you ever do that if you don't have a proper, easily understood and all the G.R.E.A.T things happened? You can't develop that at your desk. If it's not recognized and being followed, you're in serious trouble. Easy, if you can't understand it, well. If you're not available at point of use, what good is it? And then you've got to test and train.
(37:19):
I wrote another little book. All of this is at gembadocs.com. You can access Improvement Starts with I on GembaDocs and this other book, G.R.E.A.T. PROCESSES. I came up with three types of process. You've got what I call light bulb processes. These are ones that aren't very critical. We all kind of know how to do them. I can turn the light switch on with me forehead, left hand, right hand. Light still goes on. Nobody died generally. That's a light bulb process. You don't need standards for them.
(37:52):
Then intuitive. We'd like all processes to be like that. That would be utopia that we don't need a... It's just intuitive, just go do it. But in between utopia and the real world, you have what I call banana skins. Banana, for years, I peeled a banana the traditional way at the stalk. If it's not very ripe, the stuff goes all over your hands, so you have to use your teeth or whatever.
(38:20):
A Mexican guy showed me that you could do it from the other end. It's far easier. There's an optimum way of peeling a banana, but not many people know about it. That's what we were talking about earlier. If half a dozen of us are doing it differently, we'll come up with an optimum way. Wouldn't that that be better? That's a banana process.
Matt (38:37):
Brilliant.
Tom Hughes (38:37):
And then the last one is the traffic light. The traffic light is you better do it this way or bad stuff happens when you run through the red light. That's the third type of process. Again, all businesses have that. We have things everybody knows how to do. There's things that only some people know how to do and there's things that, well, if we don't get that right. And it doesn't have to be that somebody's going to die, it can be that there's a terrible customer experience, I don't know, if you're a hairdresser and you don't know how long to leave the highlights on for, or whatever. We have them. Just in terms of standardization, which is just one small part, but it is foundational of Lean. It applies all across the board.
Ryan (39:27):
One of the quotes that always sticks out in my mind is, "Systems will set you free." And when all your processes are documented and in a place, you don't have to worry about it. It means you can go away on holidays for a week and your phone isn't ringing.
Tom Hughes (39:42):
100%.
Ryan (39:42):
Or you can get home at five o'clock and take the kids to their football and you haven't got three missed calls on your phone. Systems do set you free.
Tom Hughes (39:48):
Definitely.
Ryan (39:49):
And that's really what you're talking about.
Tom Hughes (39:50):
That is 100%.
Ryan (39:52):
It's systemizing everything to free you up to go and do what you want to do.
Tom Hughes (39:56):
I have an objective. I'll be 55 in two and a half years time. And I absolutely will not have to work every day. Definitely not. I intend to work to the day I die. But how do you do that if you don't have a structured, system...
Ryan (40:16):
System. Yeah.
Tom Hughes (40:17):
Driven way to run things? Yeah, I live in it.
Ryan (40:22):
Yeah. Very good.
Matt (40:22):
It's fantastic, man.
Ryan (40:24):
What would you say to somebody, Tom, who's listening to this podcast or watching the podcast, they're really interested in Lean, but they're not sure where to start? What's the first thing somebody should do to embark on their Lean journey?
Tom Hughes (40:36):
Read 2 Second Lean, and then read my book, and then reach out to somebody like me. I mentor dozens of people every day, and the only requirement is that you've done those two things and you're serious about Lean. And then we'll introduce you to the community of people.
(40:57):
There's close to 70 people in the Signal group from Improvement Starts with I, from Lean Veterans right up to people that have just passed the first hurdle of reading a couple of books and they really want to do it. And the mix makes it great. And it's such a powerful community in Lean. Everybody gives. If you're not a giver, you're not in there.
(41:20):
We all enjoy that and it's the shortest cut to getting it right because if you don't reach out to people who've already been there and done that, you'll make a terrible amount of mistakes that you can avoid if you just reach out to people like us and we'll help you.
Matt (41:36):
Yeah, Brilliant. Well, if you'd like to check out GembaDocs or any of Tom's books, we have links to that in the description of this episode. Whether you're listening on Spotify or you're watching on YouTube, if you'd like to come to the pilgrimage, that is a Seating Matters tour, a Lean Made Simple tour up in Lima Valley, there's a link to the Lena Made simple website as well. We'd love for you and your organization to come up and see us to see it for yourself. You'll love this. Paul Akers described it as a learning laboratory.
Tom Hughes (42:03):
100%.
Matt (42:04):
Isn't that cool? Basically, you can come and see this sort of stuff in action before your eyes.
Tom Hughes (42:07):
Wow. That's beautiful.
Matt (42:09):
And go back to your home and your business changed. Tom, again, thank you very much.
Ryan (42:12):
Thank you, Tom.
Tom Hughes (42:12):
Thanks for having me, guys.
Ryan (42:13):
Thank you very much.
Tom Hughes (42:13):
It's been a lot of fun.