UNLEASH Your Business With The Power of FLOW
Welcome to Lean Made Simple, a podcast about transforming your business — and life — one step at a time.
In this episode, Ryan Tierney from Seating Matters shares the powerful lean concept of "flow.”
Along the way, he and Producer Matt talk about:
What Ryan's dentist taught him about manufacturing
Why your product should always be flowing to your customer
How to turn your factory into a river of value
One simple trick to identify blockages in your business
The secret behind Toyota's “sea of flow"
Why business owners can't make all the changes themselves
And the power of transforming specific members of your team into “water-spiders.
Check it out!
Links:
Book a Lean Made Simple Tour: https://www.leanmadesimple.com/book-a-tour
Send a voice message/question to the show: https://www.speakpipe.com/LeanMadeSimple
Welcome to Lean Made Simple: a podcast for people who want to change their business and their lives one step at a time. I’m Ryan Tierney from Seating Matters, a manufacturing company from Limavady, Northern Ireland that employs 60+ people. Almost ten years ago, I came across this thing called “lean” and it transformed my life… now I want to share this message with as many people as possible.
This podcast unpacks our learnings, lessons and principles developed over the last decade in a fun, conversational way that will hopefully empower you on your own business journey — whether you’ve been doing lean for years or are just starting out!
Check it out on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any other podcast platform by searching “lean made simple.”
Thanks and all the best.
— Ryan Tierney
Full Transcription of Episode
LMS - Flow
===
Ryan: [00:00:00] Everything should be in a flow state. So anywhere that there isn't flow as a potential to improve. So all we're doing is business leaders and managers. is improving flow.
But if you really boil it down to this one podcast, there's enough information in this podcast to keep your business improving for the next 20 years. all we're really doing is improving flow. That's all we are doing.
Matthew: So Ryan, what on earth is Flow and why is it so so important for all the business owners listening to this today?
Ryan: Yep, so a very small word but a massive meaning and this is going to be a really exciting podcast because anybody listening to this who runs a business, works in a business, wants to streamline their, organization, this is the podcast.
This is going to give you all the answers.
Matthew:
Ryan: So flow, very small, simple word, but a massive meaning behind it. Basically, at a very basic level, every single thing in our organization should be flowing towards the customer Every process should be [00:01:00] flowing towards the customer.
Every service should be flowing towards the customer. Anywhere where there's a stoppage or a blockage, there is waste.
Matthew: I remember actually Brad Cairns, friend of the show, shout out to Brad. He talks about he's in the woodworking business and making doors. He described his factory as like a river of wood.
So it's like the wood actually physically flowing through the factory. Why is that idea of a river so powerful whenever it comes to this idea of flow and, and our products?
Ryan: Yeah. So when we talk about lean and lean thinking and lean manufacturing, there's lots of terminologies and lots of information out there.
But basically lean can be simplified to this one word and it's flow and that's all we're trying to do in our organizations and any lean organization you're trying to improve flow and anywhere where there's a stoppage anywhere where there's a blockage is potential for improvement. And that's why it's so easy to walk into any organization.
You know, I could [00:02:00] walk into a company for the first time and I can just spot things all over the place because it's so easy to witness where there's no flow. A hundred unread emails, a load of inventory sitting, anything that's static.
is potential for massive improvement.
So if we think about the whole process of making a product, you know, the customer should get the quotation, then it turns to an order, It flows through the facility, through the factory, it goes to the customer, the payment comes in.
Every single process should flow almost like a ballerina dance, you know, there should be no stoppages.
Matthew: Right, and anywhere where there is a stoppage, like, oh, it takes three days for the quotation to reach the customer there's your waste.
Ryan: Exactly. You're pinpointing the waste.
Matthew: Interesting. And so when you look out on your factory
or any business owner looks out on their business and they see things stopping.
Yeah. It's like, there's waste, there's opportunities to improve. Because so many people write in the show, I don't know where to start with improvements. And what you're saying is, where are things stopping? Look there, [00:03:00] and then that's your improvement opportunity.
Ryan: So just stand in the middle of your factory, stand in the middle of your office, and you will spot burden, you will spot blockages all over the place. And then just start asking questions on how can we improve this, how can we create flow. Right,
Matthew: and the water metaphor really, really works because if you, You can't see a body of water that's not moving.
It's usually like a swamp, it's like stagnant and there's like weird stuff growing in it. And it's probably the same for our businesses, isn't it? It's the
Ryan: exact same.
Everything should be in a state of motion, whether it's products going through a factory, whether it's us in a flow state when we're, you know, coming up with ideas, everything should be in a state of motion and in a state of flow.
Matthew: Perfect. So, I mean, we're going to go through the three levels of flow, like we often do in the show.
First level's individual in our personal lives. Second level's in our business. Third level's kind of philosophical and more deeper. So you've led us perfectly into this. Let's just really quickly rattle through level one, like real world, everyday examples.
So something I've heard you say before, the difference between roundabouts and traffic lights. Talk to [00:04:00] us about that.
Ryan: Yep. So you can see this everywhere, even on the drive up here today. You know, the roundabouts, if you look at a roundabout, the traffic is in a constant state of flow. There's very little stoppages, very little blockages.
It's always moving. There's, you know, it's a nice way to demonstrate flow. Whereas a traffic light system is stop, start, stop, start. So a roundabout system, if we can think about that roundabout system on our businesses, roundabout system in our processes, you know, if we can think more like a roundabout and less like a traffic light system, that that's a very visual and understandable way to communicate what we're trying to talk about here today.
Right. So
Matthew: it's less about start, stop, start, stop. It's just keep everything moving. Yeah. Because as you say, Everything should be moving to serve the customer. So when we're driving, the customer is, I don't want to be stuck in traffic. We're the customer. So the roundabout serves us because it stops through stoppages and blockages, which brings pain and frustration.
What about like, uh, I don't know if this is going to work, but like going to [00:05:00] the dentist. And like, instead of the dentist or the, or maybe even like a surgeon having to like start and stop all the time, look for a tool, whatever, like,
what other examples of flow are there in everyday world?
Ryan: Okay, so if you think about a dentist, the last time you've been at a dentist, there's nearly always a dental nurse or somebody supporting the dentist, so that they can add value to the patient, so they're not disrupting flow, they're not looking for materials, they're not looking for the next tool, everything is supplied right when they need it to create flow and to improve flow, because ultimately,
The goal is to serve the customer, and that's really important, I think, to mention that a lot of lean organizations around the world need to have a focus on the customer,
because that's why we're all here.
That's why we're doing what we do. That's why we're improving all the processes to add value to the customer. And sometimes that can be forgot about, you know, there's a Maybe companies doing lean for the sake of doing lean or to reach some type [00:06:00] of KPI, but the goal of every lean organization is to add value to the customer by reducing waste and improving flow.
Matthew: So, so good. And as always, you've very professionally moved us into level two, which is all about the business. Talk to me about like the role of a leader in an organization when it comes to flow, like what is the leader's job really when you boil it down?
Ryan: Yeah. I believe that a business that the role of a business leader or any leader or manager within an organization is to create flow.
That's really all we're doing. Or to remove blockages or stoppages. Everything should be in a flow state. So anywhere that were there, there isn't flow as a potential to improve. So all we're doing is business leaders and managers. is improving flow. We're making sure the answer is where it's needed. We're making sure the materials are coming at the right time.
We're making sure the customer has all the information that they requested. We're [00:07:00] just making sure that, like the river, it's able to flow and there's no stoppages and no blockages. And that's really the ultimate role of a lean leader in an organization. A lean leader, you know, there's loads of information out there on lean manufacturing, lean think, lean thinking.
But if you really boil it down to this one podcast, there's enough information in this podcast to keep your business improving for the next 20 years. Because all we're really doing is improving flow. That's all we are doing.
Matthew: So the business leader is really like playing the role of almost like a conductor in an orchestra then? Uh,
Ryan: absolutely. Uh, improving. Yeah. It's almost synchronization.
Mm. You know, synchronization, creating flow, and creating harmony.
Stream (1): Right.
Matthew: So, like, if we get really tactical then, like, how do you do that, right? So, like, in one of your businesses, you guys make chairs. So, there's, like, a woodworking bit, and then there's a foam bit, and then there's this [00:08:00] bit, and there's that bit.
So, how do you, like, keep things flowing? Because surely things have to sit. So how do you like actually in the real world actually do this in your business?
Ryan: Yep, this is a massive point and I want everybody to really get this next sentence. Everybody sit
Matthew: up straight and listen.
Ryan: The key to improving flow is to create a culture which understands this concept.
So what does that mean? That means every single person in your organization should be aware where there is no flow and then be empowered to make changes. to improve flow Because as business leaders, we can't be in every corner of our business. It's just not possible. You
Matthew: can't play the drums and the trumpet and the xylophone.
Ryan: Exactly. You just can't physically, physically do it. So it makes so much [00:09:00] sense for us as business leaders and as lean leaders to develop our people. To see potential blockages, to develop our people to see where something isn't flowing, to develop our people and give them the ability and the empowerment to stop and say, hold on a minute, this isn't flowing, I'm going to stop and make this jig or make this improvement or put the tool in the correct place.
So that I can improve flow. So the key to creating flow within your organization is to create a culture where every single person understands the power of flow and then is given the freedom to do something about it. How do you do that? Actually, I've got a book coming out. A 12 step process actually, um, that's something that we're going to be talking [00:10:00] more about later.
But there's actually a book coming out on a 12 step process for developing a lean culture. And that's what we've done at our company. We've been really successful. at developing a leading culture and it's such a powerful thing and it's why I'm so passionate about, you know, doing podcasts to get this information out there to as many people as possible because we have seen firsthand the benefits of developing a culture.
The benefits of having a culture where every single person You know, and the organization is empowered to make changes, small incremental changes every day to create flow. So the book will be out soon. I didn't even plan to say that, but it will be out soon and it's going to change the way people, um, uh, embrace lean
Matthew: cultures.
Awesome. I'm just thinking back when we went [00:11:00] to Toyota and I know that video will be going out soon. I'm really, really excited to share the actual factory tour with people. They had these wee robots that would carry like dashboards to like from department to department or different parts of material.
Like what's going on there? Cause I was just thinking about like the constant movement there. Like you can hardly walk around that factory before the wee robots were like singing Indiana Jones at you and telling you to move out of the way.
Ryan: Do That's a class example. I never even thought about that, you know, in preparation for this podcast, but the Toyota facility is the ultimate example of flow.
Remember we were standing up on the big, like, platform looking out over the whole thing? And the only way I can explain a Toyota plant is that it's a sea of flow. It's just like a sea of movement, just acres and acres and acres of thousands and thousands of components all coming together in [00:12:00] perfect synchronization and flowing to the customer.
That's the best example of it. Crazy.
Matthew: And so I've heard Lean guys, like when we interviewed Norm on the podcast, he talked a lot about these things called water spiders. What is a water spider?
Ryan: Yep, so a water spider is a person in a production environment who goes around and gets the materials, gets information, maybe gets a tool, and supplies it to the people here doing the work. Right. So it saves everybody running about looking for this stuff. Kind of like the dental assistant. Exactly, exactly like the dental assistant.
So it puts all that running around.
Matthew: So it allows everyone to stay focused. If we think, again, back to the Toyota factory, the dashboard people are just making dashboards. Next dashboard comes, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Next, boom, boom, boom, next. Versus, oh, flip me, I have to take this dashboard now and take it down to that department and I have to go and get those parts and these parts and these parts.
It's [00:13:00] like, no, no, no. They have water spiders. That are humans that are bringing them all the parts they need and filling up all their trays. And then there's these awesome wee digital robot water spiders that are taking the finished product to the next station. And that all stops blockages, improves flow, and just keeps everything flowing towards the customer.
Ryan: Exactly. And I've got a really good Actual example that happened to us about a year ago in our welding department. So we had six welders welding a certain amount of product today. Uh, demand was increasing and we actually took one of those welders out of the process and made them a water spider. And guess what happened?
Productivity went through the roof. So we actually had less people welding, but took one of the welders and made them a water spider, because we were finding that we 5 or 6 people looking for materials, looking for tools, looking, deciding which product to work on next, but the water spider extracted all that, I suppose, non value added activity and [00:14:00] made it possible for every single person to use it.
Hmm. To keep, uh, keep providing value and creating flow.
Matthew: Really interesting. And it's making me think of now, like, digital water spiders. So for any software geeks out there, like, there's an amazing tool called Zapier. And you can set up all these wee automations. And so it basically is doing the digital version of what you just described, where it's bringing one digital thing from one app into another place.
So very simple. If someone books in a calendar invite, For this podcast, the digital water spider will automatically bring it into Notion and it will automatically bring all the content that you need in a specific place. So it allows us to keep flowing and us to keep going. Very, very cool. What other ways have you guys improved flow in your organization?
Ryan: Well, we're improving flow every single day, and that's the goal of a lean organization.
So we take 15 minutes every single morning with every person on our team, and we make small improvements. We call it 3Sing, where we sort, sweep, [00:15:00] and standardize. So we 3S every day, you know, to make sure that when I go to do the job, that the tools are right there. When I'm going to send someone an email, that I don't have to sort through all these folders on my desktop.
So we take that time aside. And we invest that time to create flow throughout the rest of the day. So we're always improving flow. It's just how we think. We're always coming up with ways to take those blockages and those stoppages out of the process.
Matthew: Class. And what is going on? When you talk about connecting the work, what's that?
Ryan: Connecting the work, yeah. Another really powerful concept, and you know, most companies don't know about this, this concept, and I just see it all the time when I go to factories or I go into companies, you know, people working in silos. So there may be a steel cutting department over here that's just cutting, [00:16:00] cutting, cutting.
All they want to do is cut. There's a department over here, all they want to do is weld. They're just welding, and they're Creating these huge big inventories of welded parts. There's these huge big inventories of cut, cut parts over here, but really what they need to do and the goal of a lean organization is to connect the work and actually physically connect the work as the ideal situation where you cut it, you weld it, you paint it, you assemble it.
1, 2, 3, 4. So physically connecting workstations together is the ultimate way to create flow. Because when people are separated in different silos, in different departments, different buildings, it creates all these stoppages and blockages and there's no flow. So the key to every lean organization is to connect.
Matthew: So it all flows. So it all flows, yeah. This has just kind of stood out to me here. You guys, like we always [00:17:00] say, you guys make medical chairs. Like, maybe a more traditional way of doing that would be, you know, uh, this factory in Thailand makes this bit, and this factory in America makes this bit, and this factory makes this, and this makes this.
So there's all these kind of disconnects. The work's not connected. Yeah. Whereas When you guys make a chair, how long does it take you to make a chair from start to finish inside your factory in that flow? Uh,
Ryan: two and a half hours. See,
Matthew: that's insane. Yeah. If you compare that with, well, for the first bit it takes two weeks, and then it gets shipped here, and then it gets shipped there, and then it gets there.
Yeah. So you guys are actually taking the one product through the whole cycle, passing it between,
Ryan: Absolutely. Because we've connected the work. And it wasn't always like that. It was actually the opposite. You know, the exact opposite of that. Our lead time used to be absolutely crazy. Like 8 10 weeks.
Because we weren't connecting the work. There was no flow throughout the organization. You [00:18:00] should literally be able to watch the product moving through the factory in slow motion. That's, that is the goal. That it should Absolutely not stop. It shouldn't stop at all. It should be, even if it's very, very slow, it should be moving.
You know, and we've seen that at Toyota. We've seen it first hand. The car is literally moving to the next stage. Nothing stops. Yeah.
Matthew: And I mean, we talked a lot about how flow is always, it should be to serve the customer. You just mentioned your lead times. Like, what an amazing thing for your customers where they can get a chair in,
what do you say, 21 days?
Ryan: Yes. Yeah, it's less than that now, yeah. And like, what did it used to be?
Oh, like eight, eight weeks.
Matthew: So this is like insanely life transforming, quality of life improving product that they'll be able to get in less than three weeks as opposed to eight weeks. Well, that's the power flow right there and the podcast.
Ryan: This is why I get so excited and also why I get so [00:19:00] frustrated when people You know, because we have loads of people coming to our facility to see what we're doing on Lean Made Simple Tours, and we invite people from all over the world to come there to see it, and a lot of companies just don't get it, you know, and if they only knew that the key to all their problems or a lot of their problems is right below their noses,
Matthew: You also, when it comes to Flu, I feel like have like quite a controversial take on people. So, you know, it seems to be like in the outside world, the aim of the game is to hold on to your people as long as possible.
I just see people flowing out of your organization all the time, but not for the reason that you would think. Yeah. Talk to me
Ryan: about that. Oh yeah, that's probably counterintuitive. I would definitely admit that. But if we're talking about flow, flow of materials through the organization, flow of the product, flow into the customer.[00:20:00]
Another example of flow, Which we should all encourage is people flowing through the organization, as in people, new people coming in and people moving on to do new things and, uh, take on new opportunities. And it's actually something, something that we encourage. Believe it or not, um, the flow of people through an organization is actually a good thing.
You know, loads of companies are doing things to try and hold on to people and staff retention and they're measuring it and you know, they're really proud that their, their staff turnover over is at a really small percentage, but that's really not a big thing for us at all. We encourage people to go and try new things, go and start a business, go and try it, go and travel.
It's You know, we shouldn't be holding on to people in a sense that, you know, that, that they feel restrictive or, you know, restricted. We should encourage them to go and be the best version of themselves that they can be. And if that [00:21:00] means moving through the organization, that's actually a good thing.
Right. Another massive benefit is that you have new ideas coming in all the time. True. You know, imagine working with the same 40 people for the next 20 years. You know, we're just all bouncing ideas off the same group of people. You know, it's, it's new ideas is what we need. So when new people come into the organization, You have new perspectives on things.
You have new ways of looking at things. So a flow of people throughout the organization is actually a good
Matthew: thing. Yeah, that's great. And I feel like that takes us really nicely into level three, which is kind of the more deeper philosophical side of flow. Um, you know, what you're describing is it's like, uh, an organization as a healthy living organism.
Actually never even connected those two words together. Do you know what I mean? But I love that idea that like healthy things flow. And as we said at the start, you know, water, like healthy, If water stays still, it becomes unhealthy. If organizations stay still, they become healthy. If there's not a new influx of [00:22:00] people, if there's not fresh things coming into it.
Talk to me more.
Ryan: Even as a mindset, being in a flow state is a really nice place to be. Like, doing this podcast right now, I'm really enjoying it. I really love talking about what we talk about. I love working with the people we're working with here. So, I feel we're on a flow state, and when you're on a flow state, you are in harmony with, you know, you're in harmony with the laws of nature, almost.
And that's the way we should all be aiming to work. We should all be aiming to the purposeful work that we enjoy. Working with people we enjoy, working on projects that we enjoy. Because when you do that, you're in this flow state. Ideas just keep coming. You know, it just feels good. You forget about the time.
You don't have to look at your watch to see when 5 o'clock is. Yeah. It's a nice way to
Matthew: work. And we talk a lot about, and this is why [00:23:00] I think, your company culture is so successful and why people fly over the world to see it is because these principles have been internalized by your team. Yeah. You know, and so when you think about how you, Ryan Tierney, as an individual have internalized flow in your own life, whether it's your personal life, your family, you know, I love what you say where you're not starting to stop them throughout the day.
Oh, is work almost finished? Oh, is work almost finished? It's like, no, no, no. You're flowing. like,
your business is almost an extension of your purpose and who you are and it's a vehicle for you to
bring your gifts and your vision and your mission to the world.
Touch a wee bit more on that.
Ryan: yeah, it's a good point. Uh, something that probably haven't put a lot of thought into, to be honest.
But now that you've asked me the question. Now we're flowing. And now we're flowing.
Yeah, we're in the flow.
I think when opportunities come my way, That you almost have an intuition. You almost know if it feels right. You get a gut instinct for things. You can look at all the facts and figures you want, [00:24:00] but intuitively kind of know when something is flowing, you know, if you get really excited about an idea and you phone somebody to talk about it and they don't answer the phone, it's kind of like, ah, maybe it wasn't.
Maybe it just wasn't right. Or maybe not push it. But when you're in the flow state and you bounce an idea of somebody and they're all on for it and then you do this and it works and you phone somebody else and that, you know, it's, you're almost drawn towards the thing that you want. Right. If that makes sense.
Matthew: I'm almost picturing like each of our lives, this is really going for it now, but like picturing each of our lives as a river and you know whenever an opportunity is flowing in the correct direction for your life and when it's going against that.
Ryan: Exactly, yeah. Yeah. Because you can feel the discomfort or you can feel the unease if something just isn't right.
Yeah. Because we're approached with business opportunities all the time. Myself and my two brothers. [00:25:00] And sometimes something comes along which you could make a lot of money. It makes sense on paper, but it just doesn't, it just doesn't feel right. It's just not on purpose. And when something isn't on purpose.
And it doesn't feel right, we tend to not, to not go ahead with it. I
Matthew: love that, man. I'm really, really glad we got there actually, because I think that's like, hugely, hugely valuable. One of my favorite quotes is, healthy things grow. And I think I'm going to like, co opt it now and just say healthy things flew.
You know, healthy relationships, healthy marriages, healthy businesses. Healthy Everything. It's like there, there should be an element of flow in all of those things. So, I mean, how do we get started? You know, for the business owner listening, they're like, what on earth have we got to at the end of this podcast?
Let's bring it, bring it back to, you know, we love to equip people with tools and practical steps. So where do we
Ryan: go from here? I think in the spirit of keeping things simple at a very basic level, the next time you're at your [00:26:00] company or at your organization, now that you're aware of what we're talking about, you will be able to witness a blockage very easily.
Um, if you've got a, for example, in a production environment, just stand for five minutes and it won't be two minutes until somebody has to go and look for something or ask somebody a question and just walk over to them and say, you know, just. Or even do it with them. That's probably better than watching.
Do it with somebody or do it with a group. And say the next time you have to look for something, the next time you're wondering where that tool is, the next time you've got a question. Just capture that. Let's write it down and at the end of the day see how many times You were disrupted in your flow because I believe that disruption is actually the ninth waste.
You know, we talk about the eight wastes of lean and I think disruption is, it should be its own waste. How many times are we doing something and we [00:27:00] get disrupted? You're on a phone call and somebody barges into the office. You're on a flow state, typing an email and somebody rings to ask you something.
Anywhere there is a distraction is disrupting flow. And it's so easy to identify that and so easy to spot it. And you can start right now, today, and make small changes to improve flow. But really, the key to this whole thing is to develop a culture. It really is. Because me and you, me and you. You know, as individuals can fix all these things, which is good.
It's nice. It'll, it'll improve flow personally for ourselves, but to really have a big impact on the organization, the key, and I get so excited about this. The key is to teach and train every single person on flow. If I was you listening to this or watching this, I would gather your whole company around.
Get them all in a room and play this podcast, play [00:28:00] this video, and then have a discussion afterwards. And, you know, talk about where is our company not flowing? And I guarantee you, you'll have a hundred ideas in 20 minutes.
Matthew: Be the conductor, not the trumpet player. That's what I'm hearing. Yeah. Awesome.
Brian, thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate it. Class episode. Thank you.