Lean Legends | Brendan McGurgan & Claire Colvin | Simple Scaling
Brendan McGurgan and Claire Colvin are the co-founders of Simple Scaling, a company that empowers leaders to 10x their business through books, podcasts, live events and accelerator programs.
In this episode we talk about:
The role lean plays in scaling
Why systems will set you free
How we’re all in the business of building people
Modeling the behaviour we want to see in others
And the biggest barrier that stops people from scaling
Check it out!
Links:
Simple Scaling Website: https://simplescaling.com/
ScaleX Insider Podcast: https://simplescaling.com/our-podcasts
Upcoming ScaleX Summit: https://scalexsummit.com/book-now
Book a Lean Made Simple Tour: https://www.leanmadesimple.com/book-a-tour
Welcome to Lean Made Simple: a podcast for people who want to change their business and their lives one step at a time. I’m Ryan Tierney from Seating Matters, a manufacturing company from Limavady, Northern Ireland that employs 60+ people. Almost ten years ago, I came across this thing called “lean” and it transformed my life… now I want to share this message with as many people as possible.
This podcast unpacks our learnings, lessons and principles developed over the last decade in a fun, conversational way that will hopefully empower you on your own business journey — whether you’ve been doing lean for years or are just starting out!
Check it out on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any other podcast platform by searching “lean made simple.”
Thanks and all the best.
— Ryan Tierney
Magic Moment: The biggest obstacle business owners face
Full Transcription of Episode
Brendan McGurgan (00:00):
Lean provides head space. When you're not giving energy to having to think about all the little mundane tasks in your day-to-day road, it actually frees you to unlock the greatest potential that exists within people, and that's our creative faculty.
Claire Colvin (00:16):
As David Jenen says, processes and systems will set you free.
Brendan McGurgan (00:19):
Absolutely.
Matt (00:21):
Welcome back guys to the Lean Made Simple podcast. The show is all about helping people transform their business and their life one step at a time. We have an absolute delight. This is just so, so cool. I have a prop actually. Wait till you see this for being prepared.
(00:34):
Sitting down? Look at this.
Brendan McGurgan (00:34):
Wow!
Matt (00:39):
Wow. Anybody's listening on audio, I'm holding up a really, really great book. This is a book that is on 2-second Lean level. This should be in the library for all of your Lean learnings. These guys, Brandon and Claire from Simple Scaling have developed this unbelievable system for 10x and businesses. And it's businesses in every industry you could possibly imagine. And so really delighted to have you both here today. Thank you for your time.
Claire Colvin (00:59):
Thanks for having us, Matt.
Brendan McGurgan (01:00):
Thank you so much, Matt.
Claire Colvin (01:00):
And the book's not yet dog-eared enough.
Matt (01:04):
Well Here's the cool thing, this is a brand new copy that I lifted. I know you guys have brought a bunch of stuff for all the guys here at the Summit.
Brendan McGurgan (01:11):
Indeed. And we say "Just don't read the material, be the material."
Matt (01:14):
Epic. So I'm, really curious how you guys both came across Lean and how you guys now use that as one of the tools in your tool belt for helping scale companies. So Claire?
Claire Colvin (01:26):
Yeah, well. For anybody who's read the book you'll quickly see that our scaleX framework is made up of 10 different principles, and one of those principles is all around process. And what's really important is... Process is typically one of those areas where business leaders know process are important, but it just falls down to the bottom of their priority list. And therefore, the processes are nor defined or allocated or optimized. And what typically happens then is the leader ends up really getting sucked into the business.
(02:05):
It gets to a point where it grows and the leader just cannot extract themselves from the business. So, our approach around that principle is actually twofold. Lean is the second half of what we do within that particular workshop and that principle, and we are big believers that with process, you really need to define what your end-to-end processes are first before you can see whether the people know what they're doing, before you can see whether you've got waste, duplication, almost before you can optimize. So we did it in two halves, again, not Lean related but very similar. We talk about a framework called Systemology. And again that helps business leaders to understand what are the critical end-to-end processes, right? From how do we get the attention of our customers right through to the end in terms of how do we ensure that they come back for more, and everything in between. And then once those are defined, Lean is a beautiful vehicle for taking those and actually stripping it out and making it the best that it can be.
Brendan McGurgan (03:14):
That's grand.
Matt (03:15):
What I'm hearing you say is, "There's no sense in two-second Lean improvements and processes that shouldn't even be there in the first place or are totally broken".
Claire Colvin (03:23):
Absolutely, absolutely yes.
Matt (03:24):
Crazy. Were you in through acres or tyranny or, there's, Lean and then there's Lean-Lean.
Brendan McGurgan (03:30):
Well It's really interesting because our background, my background is almost 20 years in manufacturing. My first coming to hear of Lean was the understanding that you had to have this super-duper mega degree, you had to go away to Lean school, you come back, you were six Sigma black belt or green belt, or blue belt, that you did all this stuff called Sing, and that actually I wasn't clever enough at all to understand that you had to be super-duper qualified and you were then appointed to do this Lean thing out on this manufacturing floor. It was only whenever I discovered, having left our previous business, I retired from the business after 17 years, I discovered Paul Aker's work and through hosting the ScaleX Insider podcast, I became fascinated with his two-second Lean, which wasn't what I understood Lean to be at all. It was simply about fixing what bugs you. And in that language that just had me hooked, that makes so much sense. And the concept of two-second Lean...
Matt (04:39):
Yes.
Brendan McGurgan (04:39):
Just that, if you'd see something that's bugging you, just fix it. You didn't need to spend 10 years qualifying as this black belt in this kind of thing that nobody could understand but was going to revolutionize your factory floor. It was actually something that you could integrate into your own life and actually then bring it into your own business. So it started with Paul Aker, believe it or not, and Paul said, "Do you know, you know the Tierneys"? And I couldn't understand him, I missed it, "The tyranny"? And Seeding Matters and I'd never heard of Seeding Matters. I said [inaudible 00:05:17].
Matt (05:17):
Are those Japanese phrases Paul, like what are you saying?
Brendan McGurgan (05:19):
Yeah, I kind of went with it. I'd go, "Yeah, yeah", I couldn't understand even, Seeding Matters? Is that a Japanese term? And he said, yeah, they're based in Ireland, these guys are smashing it.
(05:32):
And I said, right, okay. "Ryan he's smashing it"! So I connected with Ryan then through LinkedIn. So it was actually I had to go to the other side of the world-
Matt (05:42):
That's so funny-
Brendan McGurgan (05:43):
For a guy to introduce me to a guy that lives down the road who is absolutely smashing Lean.
Matt (05:49):
Fab.
Brendan McGurgan (05:49):
Yeah!
Matt (05:50):
And so what Paul Eggers has done is He's made Lean scalable. So as you say, you don't have to go and get the 10 year black belt thing. And we just got back from the factory tour at Seeding Matters and we saw Lean at Scale. Every single person has such a strong grasp of it. They're explaining what would seemingly be very complicated principles just distill down in into five-year-old language it's, really, really powerful.
Claire Colvin (06:14):
A hundred percent.
Brendan McGurgan (06:14):
And what you see actually... The focus of Lean is actually focused on people. Back to Claire's, the essence of Claire's being is "We don't build businesses, we build people and people build businesses". That's the essence of Lean. We have witnessed this morning Jenny and Beverly, ladies in... Let's say, mature ladies that could be my mum, who are hosting people from all across the world and articulating in a really relatable way what Lean means to them. And in fact a lot of the times they don't... It's not about using the Lean concept. I think the word Lean actually puts people off. It's that "Fix what bugs you". The answer should be where the question is asked, "Leave it better than you found it". And everybody gets that.
Claire Colvin (07:07):
I think you've got the nail in the head there because it's one of the biggest misconceptions of Lean, is that people go in thinking it's all about process. Where actually, we learned very quickly whenever we first came up here in the tour is that... In fact was it Paul said it this morning, somebody said this morning, "Lean improves people's lives".
(07:27):
What person wants to come into an organization where you're told what to do, you're micromanaged by your manager, you can't find anything, the team's frustrated and falling out and kind of boxing each other because things don't work smoothly. And on the tour this morning we saw the two Kyles, we saw Cody and we saw-
Matt (07:27):
Wee Kyle and Big Kyle!
Claire Colvin (07:50):
And Cody and Jack as well and... It's lovely to see the personal development side. But again I think what comes with Lean is the association with process. And Paul, I've got to say, and the Tierneys are doing a great job at changing that misconception but it's so much wider than that.
Matt (08:15):
Yeah, and I just want to give a quick shout out to Jack. I thought Jack spoke brilliantly, and it was amazing to see Jack just owning the room there. He had 16 people from all over the world as you were saying, and he's there communicating and He's leading morning meetings and everything. Very, very cool.
Brendan McGurgan (08:28):
And You've got the Chloe 27 [inaudible 00:08:31] who lives down the road. [inaudible 00:08:35]'s articulating what Lean means. And this is something that just wraps it up for me. Lean provides head space. And when you have that head space, when you're not giving energy to having to think about all the little mundane tasks in your day-to-day role, it actually frees you to unlock the greatest potential that exists within people. And that's our creative faculty, our imaginative creative faculty is what distinguishes us from all other mammals.
Matt (09:07):
Absolutely.
Claire Colvin (09:07):
As David Jenen says, processes and systems will set you free.
Brendan McGurgan (09:11):
Absolutely.
Matt (09:13):
Totally. So you guys run this phenomenal program, this accelerator-
Brendan McGurgan (09:17):
Thank you.
Matt (09:18):
And you take SMEs in, you take their leaders, and you help them 10x their business. And one of the things you do as part of that program is you take these people up to see Seeding Matters. Now, not everyone is in manufacturing, as we said at the top of the show, totally different industry selling all sorts of products. What effect do you see on the people inside your program when they come and they see Lean in action and Seeding matters?
Brendan McGurgan (09:45):
I think that's so critically important, it's one of the concepts of Lean in terms of teaching Lean, is show don't tell. So, we can talk about what Lean is, but actually when people through that workshop are being immersed in what it is in reality, on the factory floor, in the finance function, one of the questions that always gets asked say well "Lean is something that is the domain of manufacturing businesses. It doesn't apply to my business, my business is a service business of a big finance function, whatever". And it just applies to every corner of a business. And when you can show people that, that is really, really impactful. And then the teaching that's wrapped around that, all the concepts that we've been speaking about, then the penny drops.
Claire Colvin (10:39):
I think in addition to what you're saying there, applying to every industry is really important. I think as well, one of the things that they learn, again being up at Seeding Matters is the change starts with them as individuals. And one of the exercises we ask them to do, because you asked the impact of the program, and one of the things that we ask people to do is to identify 10, two-second improvements that the leader can take whenever they go back into their business the following day. So instantly they're starting to think about it, and then the-
Matt (11:08):
Most valuable homework ever.
Claire Colvin (11:09):
Yeah. Most of the time they're onto the second page because they know it and they see it and they recognize that actually the change starts with them.
Brendan McGurgan (11:17):
Yeah, it's something, I know You've had Tom Hughes on, and Tom talks about "Improvement starts with I", and something certainly as a parent that I've come to recognize, and I wish I'd learned it way back as opposed to now, the fact that I've old teenagers but, is the calm process or the calm methodology of parenting. Which is "Communicate, advise, listen, and model", and model being the most impactful.
Matt (11:44):
Wow.
Brendan McGurgan (11:44):
So the question we get asked the most and the question that's most asked of the Tierneys when we bring people here on the tour is "How do I implement this?". The implementation starts with the "I", it starts with them modeling the behavior, and that can be as simple as going back into the next day and clearing up their desk. So the next meeting they have when somebody comes in they go, "Oh, something's different in here. What have you done?" "Oh I've decided that the layout of this table and the mess that's in front of me is really bugging me. And I've just fixed it."
Matt (12:19):
Yeah. And it's interesting because I've heard you say loads of times on your podcast and keynotes and all that sort of stuff that "The biggest factor that holds somebody back from scaling is themselves". So it's the mindset of the leader, and the fact that the two-second Lean approach is all about leading from the front, it's starting internally and that kind of ripples out.
Brendan McGurgan (12:39):
The greatest barrier to scaling is unchallenged limiting beliefs, and that creates a barrier from where I could be to where I am now. And the belief is that this is the responsibility of somebody else, not the responsibility of me. And that ultimately until you actually start to self-reflect and to become aware that whilst you may have been the igniter or the creator of this company, you're now the potential impediment choking the potential of the company because you're not prepared to change.
Matt (13:25):
Crazy.
Claire Colvin (13:25):
And quite often our participants will see that at some point along the program and it could be halfway through the 12-month program, but they then start to understand their impact and their role on the whole journey.
Matt (13:39):
Yeah. Great. Final question and just from both of you, I'd love to know for somebody listening or watching to this, maybe they've heard about Lean, maybe they've just started it, maybe they've hit their first slump and they're kind of falling off the bandwagon a wee bit. What would you say to those leaders who may need a little bit of encouragement or a little bit of guidance for what a good action step would be?
Claire Colvin (14:02):
From my point of view, I was having this conversation just with some folks over lunch... Sorry, there's probably a couple of things here. If you're thinking about starting your Lean journey, we would come on tours here quite regularly and one of the most common questions we get asked is "where do I start?". And there's a wonderful concept of the morning meeting which gets people really engaged, but sometimes it can be quite a severe change almost, and maybe not get the buy-in that you initially want. And many of the Lean fanatics that we are speaking to have WhatsApp groups where they just start to drop in little improvements, record videos, get people engaged to almost start the snowball forming before they really... I guess really get more in depth on their journey.
(14:58):
But in terms of people getting started, think of all the things within your business. You've got to make it real. Think of all the things within your business that frustrate the life out of you and ask yourself, could something like Lean help to fix a lot of those frustrations? And chances are the answer will be yes.
Matt (15:16):
Awesome.
Claire Colvin (15:17):
It's absolutely... We are here in a room with 200 people who are all talking about how it's a game changer and it's changed their businesses like big manufacturing companies, so...
Matt (15:28):
Phenomenal.
Brendan McGurgan (15:30):
Yeah, I would encourage people to reflect on whether they want to call it Lean or not because Lean comes with loads of connotations, like I had, that makes you think that you have to be university-qualified in something that is an absolute specialism. And the reality is it's simply, at its core, about fixing what bugs you. I would start with listing out, like Claire has referenced, 10 things that bug you and you fix those 10 things. Don't-
Matt (16:03):
Don't outsource it.
Brendan McGurgan (16:04):
Don't hand them off. No-
Matt (16:06):
Here you go Daniel, you [inaudible 00:16:07] your man.
Brendan McGurgan (16:08):
"I was at this Lean summit, and you're doing this, and this, and this, and this".
(16:12):
Start every week, and it doesn't have to be 10 things, start off with three for the next four weeks, and just start to systematically work through those, and you will be asked questions about what you're doing. And simply relay it back, that you're fixing what bugs you. Alongside that, you might want to share the podcast that you guys have already produced, everybody's in WhatsApp nowadays. Share the... The two-second Lean book is available on audio player, on WhatsApp, share the reading material and just gently, just kind of start to seep it out there, as opposed to coming in and going, "Bang, I've been to this summit and we're doing Lean!".
Claire Colvin (16:57):
And how typical will that be? Think of all the business leaders out there and a lot of people back in the workplace may be thinking, "Oh my gosh, he's at this summit, I'm going to come back with a load of stuff to do afterwards". So your advice is so important, it starts with them taking action.
Brendan McGurgan (17:13):
And just to wrap that up, I mean it's reflecting that this is a marathon of a series of sprints. It's not a sprint, you're not going to implement Lean today and see the results next week and then get frustrated if those results aren't coming. What we've heard time and time again is "This takes time", and it's about compounding all of those little two-second improvements that over the course of one month, three months, six months, 12 months, three years. The guys have shared with them, it's six, seven years of a journey that they have been on, to culminating in what people are seeing now.
Matt (17:54):
Yeah.
Brendan McGurgan (17:54):
So be patient with it, but be confident that once you start with you that ultimately you will reap the dividends down the line.
Matt (18:06):
Phenomenal. Wow, what a way to end. Absolute zinger at the end. It's like you clearly do a lot of podcasts like, okay, I'm moving into the last 10, 50 seconds. Okay, I need to stick my landing in here. Okay, I'm doing a back flip up in here. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Double footed. Yeah, we did it!
(18:23):
Guys, thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you for listening and watching as both you guys said.
(18:29):
Yeah, come on.
(18:32):
Check out some of the other episodes in the back catalog. And where can we find you guys, your website?
Brendan McGurgan (18:37):
Www.Simplescaling.com.
Matt (18:39):
Check it out now. Have a good day guys. See you later.
Claire Colvin (18:39):
Thanks.